You Already Are What You’re Looking For – An Interview with Dr. Evan Fishman

What does it look like to finally trust the wisdom that’s been inside you all along?

He helped shape the products that kept a billion people scrolling, studying exactly what makes us tap, return, and stay. Then in 2023, Dr. Evan Fishman was laid off from Meta, and the identity he’d built his career around went with it. Sitting on the edge of his bed that night, his wife asked him a question that stopped him cold, one he still hasn’t fully stopped answering.

In this conversation, Evan talks about the difference between conceptual knowing and gnosis, why he thinks of his ego as an eggshell rather than something to destroy, and how he went from researching human behavior at a tech giant to helping people trust the wisdom already inside them.

Whether you’ve built your own identity around achievement or simply wonder what’s underneath all that striving, this conversation offers a grounded, honest look at what it actually takes to come home to yourself.

Continue reading or listen in by subscribing for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or YouTube.

What was the journey from educational psychology to Meta?

Dr. Evan Fishman: Underlying my whole journey was always a question that fascinated me: Why do people behave the way they do? That curiosity is what first drew me to educational psychology. I focused specifically on motivational psychology—the study of what drives people to pursue certain outcomes.

Like many people who earn that degree, I was on track to become a professor. I completed my postdoctoral work at Stanford and genuinely enjoyed academic life for a while. But living in Silicon Valley, I was constantly exposed to the tech world, and I discovered a field called user experience research. It immediately resonated with me.

Rather than continuing down the path of a professorship, I decided to pursue UX research instead. Eventually, that journey led me to Meta.

In many ways, I was still doing the same work—trying to understand people—but at a much larger scale. My role was to understand how people use products, what their experiences are like, and how those experiences could be improved.

Is your psychology background something you used directly in your work every day?

Dr. Evan Fishman: Absolutely. Psychology provides the framework for the work I did at Meta, and for similar roles at companies like Google and many other tech organizations.

There’s also a very practical side to it. My doctoral training taught me how to study human behavior—how to design studies, conduct research, and interpret findings. Those research skills are a huge part of the job and remain incredibly important in my day-to-day work.

So you’re the guy responsible for keeping all of us addicted to Facebook and Instagram?

Dr. Evan Fishman: (Laughs). I’d like to think I wasn’t.

I was definitely someone trying to better understand people’s experiences and improve them. And sometimes that actually meant helping people become less attached or less dependent on the platforms. Those questions were part of the research, too, and they influenced the way we thought about improving the experience.

But the reality is that there are more than a billion users, and everyone uses these platforms differently. People’s relationships with technology are incredibly personal and varied.

Take us back to 2023. I know something significant shifted in your life that year, changing the trajectory of everything you’re doing now.

Dr. Evan Fishman: To answer that, I actually need to go back a little further.

For much of my life, I believed that happiness was something I had to achieve. That belief drove so much of my career and my ambition. I earned a PhD, built a successful career, worked at Meta, and checked all the boxes I thought would finally make me happy.

But underneath it all, there was still this quiet sense of lack.

That was confusing to me because I had done everything I thought I was supposed to do. The accomplishments felt exciting for a while, but the fulfillment I expected never fully arrived.

Then, in 2023, after about five years at Meta, I was laid off. I was one of thousands of people who suddenly lost their jobs.

And overnight, I lost the identity that had convinced me I was enough.

I found myself asking questions I had never really faced before: Who am I now? Am I still worthy?

I was spiraling. I remember sitting on the edge of my bed with my head in my hands, wondering what I was going to do with my life and why this had happened.

Then my wife sat beside me and asked me a question I’ll never forget.

She said, “When did we stop being enough for you?”

She meant herself, our son, and the life we had built together.

And I didn’t know how to answer.

Because in that moment, I realized she was right. Somewhere along the way, I had stopped appreciating what was already here. I had become so focused on chasing happiness that I overlooked the love, the family, and the life I already had.

That moment cracked me open.

It helped me realize how much I had to be grateful for—my family beside me, my health, my life, and simply the gift of the present moment.

For me, that was the beginning of what many people call a spiritual awakening.

And that awakening is really what started everything that has come since.

Had you experienced anything spiritual in your childhood or before 2023?

Dr. Evan Fishman: I think so, although I didn’t always recognize it at the time.

Looking back now, there were experiences throughout my life that make a lot more sense through a spiritual lens. In college, like many people, I went through a period of exploration. There were experiences—including experimenting with drugs—that opened me up in certain ways and gave me glimpses of something beyond the ordinary way I viewed life.

Then, in my twenties, I discovered The Power of Now. That book had a profound impact on me and became an important part of my journey.

I still remember one line that deeply resonated with me: Some people wait their entire lives to start living.

That was me.

I was constantly postponing happiness, believing that if I achieved one more goal or reached another milestone,  I could finally be happy. But what I gradually began to understand is that happiness isn’t a future state—it’s a present one.

That’s a pretty profound book. You almost have to be ready for it when it comes into your life. Have you gone back and read it again since then?

Dr. Evan Fishman: Yes, several times.

I also listen to Eckhart Tolle quite a bit. His teachings have been incredibly helpful—not just for me, but for many people—because they point us back to who we are at our core. And honestly, that’s a big part of the work I do today as well.

You described 2023 as a spiritual awakening. How has your life changed since then?

Dr. Evan Fishman: It’s interesting because life doesn’t stop being life. Challenges still arise. Difficult moments still happen.

What changes is your relationship to those experiences.

For a long time, I believed that being spiritually awakened meant withdrawing from the world—living on a mountaintop somewhere, renouncing pleasures, escaping ordinary life. That idea actually made me hesitant to embrace spirituality because I didn’t want to give up the life I had.

But eventually, I realized that’s not what awakening means at all.

It’s not about leaving your life behind. It’s about inhabiting it more deeply.

After leaving Meta, I continued doing user experience research at another company. But over time, that work no longer felt aligned. It wasn’t inspiring me the way it once had.

And as I continued exploring my own spiritual journey, I discovered this work—intuitive coaching—and found that I genuinely loved it. That’s really how this new chapter began.

When you say “this work,” you’re referring to intuitive coaching. How would you define intuitive coaching compared to life coaching or therapy?

Dr. Evan Fishman: At its core, intuitive coaching is actually very simple: I help people become more connected to their own intuition by using mine.

Traditional coaching often focuses on goals—what you want and how to achieve them. Therapy, meanwhile, frequently explores the past and how past experiences continue to shape you in the present.

There can certainly be elements of that in my work when it’s helpful. But I don’t work with diagnoses or clinical labels.

What I really help people explore is what’s possible when they stop relating to themselves through fear, constant striving, or old conditioning.

The work is experiential. It’s practical. It’s grounded.

And ultimately, my role is to help people reconnect with the wisdom that already exists within them.

Who are the people you most love working with, and what kinds of challenges do they typically bring to you?

Dr. Evan Fishman: It’s a wide range of people, and I always try to meet them exactly where they are.

But there are definitely some common themes.

Many of my clients are successful by conventional standards. They’ve built careers, achieved goals, and done everything they thought they were supposed to do—yet they still feel like something is missing. That’s a story I know personally.

Then some people sense there’s something more to life. They can’t quite explain it, but they feel a deeper calling or curiosity. Often, they’re skeptical of spirituality. They don’t want anything that feels vague or overly mystical.

They want to explore their inner world, but in a grounded and practical way.

Those are probably the two groups I connect with most often.

When you use your intuition to help others access theirs, where do you place yourself on the spectrum of intuitive work? Some people describe intuition as simply a feeling, while others speak with spirit guides or channel beings. How does it work for you?

Dr. Evan Fishman: I don’t really think of it as me doing something extraordinary.

I think of it more as allowing the universe to work through me.

During a session, I pay close attention to whatever naturally arises. Often, I’ll simply have a deep knowing—a sense that this is what the client most needs to hear in that moment, or the direction they’re being invited to explore.

That’s usually how it comes through for me.

Some clients are very open to ideas like spirit guides or other spiritual frameworks, and some aren’t interested in that at all.

Most people, honestly, are looking for something practical and grounded.

And wherever someone is on that spectrum, I try to meet them there.

When you talk about spirit guides and intuition, would you consider yourself psychic?

Dr. Evan Fishman: Yes. And honestly, I wasn’t always sure I wanted to talk openly about that.

I tend to use the word intuitive instead of psychic, partly because of my background. I come from the corporate world, and many of the people I work with are naturally skeptical of certain spiritual language. So I’m thoughtful about the words I use.

But yes, I do believe there’s an aspect of that in my work.

What I’ve discovered on this journey is that all of us have the capacity to access a deeper kind of wisdom—a deeper kind of knowing.

I think of there as being two types of knowing. The first is conceptual knowing, which we’re all very familiar with. It’s logical, verifiable, measurable, and provable.

You have a doctorate in that kind of knowing.

Dr. Evan Fishman: Exactly. And for a long time, I believed that was the only kind of knowing that existed.

But there’s another kind of knowing that’s often referred to as gnosis—a direct, experiential knowing.

It’s the kind of wisdom that doesn’t necessarily come from logic or external proof. It comes from direct experience, from something deeper than what we can see, touch, hear, taste, or measure.

That’s really what I try to access.

I call it intuition because it’s more approachable for many of the people I work with. But ultimately, I think we’re talking about the same thing. The labels matter less than the experience itself.

I’m fascinated by this idea of gnosis because trusting those inner knowings can be difficult. Sometimes you wonder, “Am I making this up?” Sometimes your intuition is spot on, and other times it seems less clear. How do you help people learn when to trust what they’re feeling?

Dr. Evan Fishman: I think it’s helpful to begin with something very simple.

For example, we all know what it feels like to be hungry. We don’t usually question that inner knowing—we just recognize it. In a way, that’s a form of gnosis too.

So I encourage people to start with those familiar sensations and begin paying more attention to what’s happening inside of them.

The more they practice that inward awareness, the more familiar they become with their own intuition—with the quality of it and the peacefulness that often accompanies it.

And yes, trust can be difficult.

That’s why I encourage people to approach intuition playfully, almost like an experiment. When you remove the pressure to get it right, it becomes much easier to explore.

I also don’t believe intuition should replace the mind.

The mind is an incredible tool, and we have it for a reason.

I often think of the mind as the seeker and the planner, while the heart and the gut act more like a magnet.

The goal isn’t to choose one over the other—it’s to allow them to work together.

One thing you’ve mentioned is that many of the people who are drawn to your work are highly successful. And honestly, that makes sense to me because you were successful yourself. But why do so many accomplished people still feel like something is missing? Why does success so often feel like it’s not enough?

Dr. Evan Fishman: First, I think it’s important to understand that there’s nothing wrong with that feeling.

It’s part of being human.

In many ways, we’re programmed to keep searching, to keep striving. And perhaps there’s a deeper reason for that. Maybe we’re meant to search until we eventually discover who we truly are.

Sometimes I say that the search ends when you realize that you already are what you’ve been looking for.

But to answer your question more directly, seeking and achievement aren’t bad things. They can be beautiful expressions of who we are.

The problem arises when we attach our sense of worth to the outcomes.

No amount of success can make you worthy.

And that can be a difficult truth to accept because we’ve been conditioned to believe that achievement creates value—that if we stop striving for even a moment, we’re somehow falling behind or failing.

It’s almost as if admitting that life is already good feels irresponsible, as though we’re not working hard enough or suffering enough.

But what I try to help people see is that their worth doesn’t depend on what they achieve.

Who they are, right now, is already enough.

And from that place, they can create, achieve, and contribute in a much healthier way.

Do you think it’s possible to come to that realization without first climbing the mountain of success and discovering it isn’t what you expected?

Dr. Evan Fishman: For some people, I think that journey is part of their path.

And often, the turning point comes through suffering.

No one wants to suffer, of course. But many people awaken because suffering eventually becomes unbearable. They reach a point where they say, I can’t keep living this way.

That was certainly true for me.

I wasn’t looking to become spiritual. I wasn’t trying to awaken.

I was simply trying to stop suffering.

And in that search—in the books I read, the teachings I explored, especially non-dual teachings—I began to realize that the part of me that was suffering wasn’t the entirety of who I am.

Actually, I like to explain this with a metaphor.

Please, go ahead.

Dr. Evan Fishman: I know you’ve had Suzanne Giesemann on the podcast before, and her work has been very influential for me.

One metaphor that’s been especially meaningful is the image of an egg.

I think of the shell as the human self—the ego, the personality, the identity we’ve constructed throughout our lives. It’s protective, but it can also become rigid and dense.

And the thicker that shell becomes, the harder it is for our true nature to shine through.

The inside of the egg represents what we essentially are.

Some people call it the soul. Others call it the higher self, presence, or simply being.

Whatever name you choose, its nature is the same: it is already whole, already peaceful, already loving.

The goal isn’t to get rid of the shell.

We’re human. The shell is part of us.

The invitation is simply to realize that the shell is porous—that the truth of who we are can shine through it.

That’s why I prefer to speak about expansion rather than ascension.

Because the goal isn’t to rise above your humanity.

It’s to bring your humanity with you as you expand into more of who you truly are.

You’ve mentioned Suzanne Giesemann a few times. Talk to me about how she’s influenced your life and your journey.

Dr. Evan Fishman: After my spiritual awakening, I became incredibly curious. I consumed a lot of content and explored many different perspectives that resonated with me. At some point, I came across Suzanne Giesemann on a podcast, and something about her message immediately clicked.

She speaks beautifully about what it means to live an awakened life. And, of course, she’s also a medium, which helped me begin to see that spirituality, intuition, and psychic abilities aren’t really separate things. They’re interconnected aspects of the same larger experience.

What I appreciate most about Suzanne’s teachings is her emphasis on living with joy and recognizing that all of our experiences—even the uncomfortable or painful ones—can ultimately become part of that joy and our expansion.

She’s had a profound influence on how I understand spirituality and what it means to live an awakened life.

She’s certainly an extraordinary person with a remarkable journey of her own.

Dr. Evan Fishman: She really is.

I’ve been fortunate enough to correspond with her a bit, and she’s exactly the kind of person you hope she would be—kind, authentic, and deeply grounded. She’s a wonderful example of what it means to embody these teachings in everyday life.

I want to go back to something you said earlier because I wrote it down immediately: “The need to fix your life stops when you realize you already are what you’re looking for.” That’s such a powerful statement. What does that really mean?

Dr. Evan Fishman: Another way I like to think about it is this:

We’re so busy staring at the map of where we’re trying to go that we never stop to realize we’ve already arrived.

In psychology, there’s a concept called the arrival fallacy—the belief that once we achieve a certain goal, reach a certain milestone, or become a certain version of ourselves, then we’ll finally feel complete.

Then we’ll finally be enough.

But what I’ve come to realize is that what we’re seeking isn’t somewhere outside of us, and it isn’t waiting in the future.

It’s already here.

It’s available right now.

And we know this intuitively because whenever we experience happiness, peace, love, or joy, those experiences don’t happen in the future. They only ever happen in the present moment.

We don’t experience joy tomorrow.

We experience it now.

That’s what I mean when I say we already are what we’re looking for.

It’s not always easy to explain because it’s less an intellectual idea and more something that can be directly experienced.

But once you begin to experience it for yourself, you realize that the peace you’ve been chasing was never actually missing.

It was here all along.

I spent much of my twenties and thirties feeling like, “If I can just achieve this one thing, then I’ll finally feel like I’ve made it.” I was a pastor for over a decade, and even though I would never have admitted it out loud, part of me believed that if I could just get a book deal, then somehow I would finally arrive.

Dr. Evan Fishman: I think so many people can relate to that.

Eventually, I realized it was all an illusion. I never got that book deal, but I’ve published more than a dozen books myself. I publish books for other people now, too. And at some point, I realized these things—books, films, magazines—they’re just tools. They’re vehicles for sharing something meaningful.

The only reason I think I was able to let go of that nagging feeling of “not enough” was because I hit rock bottom. I had to rebuild my life from the ground up and ask myself, “What am I really building on?”

Now, I still have ambition. I’m still driven. But it feels different. It’s no longer, “I have to do this to prove I’m enough.” It’s more like, “I wonder if we could do this? That would be fun.” The energy is completely different.

I’m not sure I could have understood that difference without going through rock bottom first.

Dr. Evan Fishman: Can I ask you something about that?

Of course.

Dr. Evan Fishman: When you hit rock bottom, do you remember what it felt like?

Honestly, I was so fractured internally that I checked myself into a mental hospital for three days. This was back in 2008. I had stepped away from ministry, relationships were falling apart, and everything I thought was stable was crumbling. Looking back, I have a lot of compassion for people who experience psychological collapse because I know how quickly life can unravel.

As difficult as that season was, it became a gift. For the first time in years, I had the space to stop performing and ask myself some fundamental questions: Who am I? What am I trying to accomplish? What do I actually want?

That experience shifted me from living on autopilot to living intentionally. I began questioning the beliefs and patterns I had inherited without realizing it. One of the biggest changes I made was learning to talk to strangers. Growing up, I had absorbed the idea that people were something to be cautious of, so I started doing the opposite. I’d strike up conversations wherever I went, and those simple interactions opened my heart. The world felt friendlier, life felt bigger, and people felt safer.

I was thirty-five years old and having experiences I had unknowingly denied myself for decades. That’s the power of choosing who you want to be instead of simply repeating who you’ve been programmed to be. Maybe people can arrive at that understanding without hitting rock bottom, but for me, it was a very powerful teacher.

Dr. Evan Fishman: That’s such a beautiful story, David.

What stands out to me is that before you could change your life, you first had to recognize the patterns you were unconsciously living from—the default programming that had been running in the background.

And then you moved into a place of autonomy and agency.

To me, that’s deeply connected to intuition.

You spoke earlier about the difference between striving because you need to prove something and striving because you’re inspired, because you’re called to something, or simply because it’s joyful.

That’s a profound shift.

And I think it’s important to say that the part of us that wants to achieve isn’t wrong.

It’s never going away.

That’s part of being human.

Achievement can be beautiful. It allows us to create, contribute, and live the lives we feel called to live.

The challenge comes when we confuse what we achieve with who we are.

That’s where suffering begins.

What I’ve found most helpful—for myself and for the people I work with—is learning not to identify exclusively with the striving part of ourselves.

Instead, I invite people to identify more deeply with what I would call the soul.

And the soul, by its very nature, is already whole.

Already peaceful.

Already loving.

Already complete.

The more we identify with that deeper truth, the more distance we gain from the mental patterns that constantly tell us we need to become someone else before we can finally be at peace.

What’s fascinating is that this question of identity doesn’t just affect ambitious, Type A personalities. I see it all the time with parents, too. My kids are in their twenties now and out on their own, and suddenly there’s this huge question: Who am I if I’m no longer needed in the same way? If so much of my identity was tied to helping them succeed, then who am I now?

Dr. Evan Fishman:I think it’s one of the central questions of being human:

Who are we?

Why are we here?

Personally, I tend to believe that we are souls first and foremost, and that perhaps we come into this life to temporarily forget who we are so that we can experience the joy of remembering.

And when we begin to remember, suffering changes.

The challenges don’t disappear. Life continues to bring difficult experiences. But we no longer suffer in the same way because we understand that, at our core, we are something much greater than the temporary stories and struggles we encounter.

If you truly knew you were an eternal being, how seriously would you take every setback?

Suddenly, life becomes less of a test and more of a playground for experience.

We stop judging painful moments so harshly.

We stop resisting uncomfortable emotions.

We stop believing that every difficult season means something has gone wrong.

Instead, we begin to see all of it—the joy, the grief, the uncertainty, the beauty—as part of this extraordinary experience we’ve been given.

How has your wife experienced this transformation in you? What has this journey been like for her?

Dr. Evan Fishman: I’ve been incredibly fortunate.

My wife has been deeply supportive through all of this. And honestly, it could have gone very differently.

Imagine telling your partner, “I’m leaving my job and pursuing a completely different path.” That’s not necessarily an easy conversation.

So I have tremendous gratitude for her.

Sometimes I joke that my wife is one of my greatest spiritual teachers—not because she’s difficult, but because she’s what I affectionately call a spiritual civilian, which I think most people are.

She understands where I’m coming from, but after being together for so long, I’m probably not always the best messenger for her.

But I know she’s seen the change.

I think she’s seen me become happier.

And perhaps more importantly, she’s seen me become more present and more capable of supporting her when she’s struggling or not feeling her best.

That means a lot to me.

I’m fascinated by your presence. I’m not surprised that you resonate with Eckhart Tolle because you have that same calm, grounded energy. Have you always been this way?

Dr. Evan Fishman: I’d love to say yes.

But honestly, I think much of this is new.

I was always a very sensitive child. And over time, I think that sensitivity evolved into what you’re sensing now.

The understanding we’ve been talking about has also helped me become more grounded.

I remember when I was young, one of my neighborhood friends told me, “My mom says you’re sensitive.”

I asked him what that meant.

And he said, “It means you cry a lot.”

That really hit me because I knew it was true.

I had never thought of myself that way before, but that sensitivity stayed with me throughout my life.

For many years, I alternated between seeking and avoiding.

I sought completion through achievement.

And when I wasn’t chasing achievement, I often escaped—through television, distraction, or simply avoiding what I was feeling.

I think a lot of men do something similar. Sometimes it’s work. Sometimes it’s substances. Sometimes it’s an endless distraction.

That was certainly true for me at different points in my life.

But everything we’ve talked about—my awakening, the challenges, the suffering, the inner work—it slowly unraveled those old patterns.

And what emerged was a much simpler understanding:

Underneath everything, all is well.

That’s become one of the deepest truths I know.

And that’s what I try to offer my clients as well—not necessarily answers, but a felt sense that beneath all the noise, beneath all the striving, beneath all the fear—

All is well.

And from that place, we can take meaningful action.

I have to say, your social media presence is incredibly unique. You’re sitting in a car or an office wearing a baseball cap, looking like the guy next door, and yet you’re talking about these deeply meaningful, sensitive subjects. It feels incredibly approachable, and I really hope your audience continues to grow.

Dr. Evan Fishman: Thank you. That means a lot to me.

I recently heard a quote that made me laugh:

“At some point on your spiritual path, you start dressing normally again.”

And honestly, that resonates with me.

My whole message is that spirituality isn’t about looking a certain way or creating a separate identity.

A spiritual life is simply the life you already have.

It’s just living more deeply within it.

So I really appreciate you saying that.

For those who want to work with you, tell us a little about your one-on-one sessions and your group offerings.

Dr. Evan Fishman: Absolutely.

People can find everything on my website. I offer a complimentary 20-minute discovery call to explore whether this work feels aligned.

I also offer group experiences, which are very special to me.

I participated in a men’s group years ago, and it had a profound impact on my life. There’s something powerful that happens in a group setting that feels very different from one-on-one coaching.

I currently facilitate an in-person men’s group in the Boulder and Denver area.

I also host an online group for people who are exploring what it means to live spiritually in everyday life—especially those who may have gone through an awakening or are navigating major inner shifts.

We gather on Zoom, share experiences, and explore how to live these teachings in practical, grounded ways.

All of that information is available on my website.

And people can also find you on TikTok, Instagram, and Substack, correct?

Dr. Evan Fishman: Yes. TikTok is probably the easiest place to find me—it’s simply Dr. Evan Fishman.

I’m also building my Instagram presence and writing on Substack.

My Substack is called The Beloved Institute.

I love that name. Why did you choose it?

Dr. Evan Fishman: Thank you for asking.

The name actually came to me intuitively.

For so much of my life, I believed I always needed to be doing something—achieving something, fixing something, becoming something.

But eventually I received this simple insight:

There’s really nothing you need to do.

If you feel like you must do something—

Simply be love.

That’s it.

Simply be love.

And from that understanding came the name:

Be Loved.

The Beloved Institute.

That’s really the heart of everything I teach.

I love that. Evan, thank you so much for being with us today. I appreciate the work you’re doing in the world, and I’m excited for people to learn more about you and your message.

Dr. Evan Fishman: Thank you, David.

It was truly a pleasure meeting you.

And likewise—thank you for creating a space for conversations like this.